Kevin Kallsen, George Conger and Gavin Ashenden (reporting from France) discuss the further developments around Jonathan Fletcher and the Iwerne Camps.
13 COMMENTS
Both Fr. George & Bsp Gavin make excellent points – George speaks very well to the secular class issues & Gavin to the spiritual. Great confluence of thoughts as usual.
Thank you, Sir or Madam: Most interesting information.
St. Erasmus is the patron saint of sailors. He is also known more familiarly as St. Elmo as in St. Elmo’s fire an atmospherical phenomena which causes the tips of spars to glow. ‘Thank you, Sir or Madam’ is the response of one of the Tortolan characters in WoW; World of Warcraft. This is too much information but a distraction from spanking which 60 million women purchasers of 50 Shades of Grey were briefly enthralled.
Ah, the Father of European Christian Humanism.
The class issues do indeed riddle English Anglicanism—and not just of the conservative evangelical variety, though it’s a real problem within that constituency.
But its always risky speculating from a distance. The fact is that AMiE includes some from a more privileged background, but actually a large majority of AMiE church leaders do not come from that background. My sense is that the class dynamics you refer to are precisely what will inhibit some from leaving the Church of England.
Having experience of both sides of the Atlantic, I’d point out that the pre-ACNA Anglican movements were messy and at times bloody. And that American versions of class—the good ole boys, the southern gentlemen—were very much in play, and bullying undeniably took place.
As far as growth goes, I wonder how much experience you have of church planting in an extremely secular environment, with very limited resources?
Class, and consequent awe and deference are very much in evidence in the CofE, and it is that reverence for position that allows these little cliques of weird people with unsavoury appetites to flourish in dimly lit corners. Church leadership has changed its focus from Christian moral and spiritual certainty to ‘man management’ and inclusion based on its embrace of secular sourced Equal Opportunity legislation.
Thus ‘Ichabod’ – the Glory has departed.
dannybhoy. I am not so d____ skeptical. You see people as Bishop Nazir-Ali, Bishop Ashenden, other Church members who have protested one way or another against the moral decline, and the people in various groups which have been involved already in efforts to tackle the problem. You may one yourself, for all that I know. All is not lost, in my opinion. We can still pray for them. The power of prayer is not something to be dismissed lightly. God works in his own way, not on our demand or schedule. We can support them via GAFCON or direct contribution. No, I disagree, the glory of God that the saints have defended and emanated in England has not been extinguished but shines on.
“All is not lost, in my opinion. We can still pray for them. The power of prayer is not something to be dismissed lightly. God works in his own way, not on our demand or schedule. ”
Of course we can pray, but let me ask you something; when slavery was abolished in this country was it solely by prayer, or were there men like William Wilberforce willing to use their influence in society and in politics by explaining the evil and demanding change?
When our nation has been threatened by invasion was it prayer alone that saved the day, or did we need men of resolve, men of courage to take action? You may well have visited the war graves of France and Belgium, and if so you will have noticed that men laid down their lives for a cause that they believed in. It wasn’t just prayer, it was action.
Hence Daniel 3..”But if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands?”16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king.[d] 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
In the same way John and Charles Wesley, and George Whitfield, William and Catherine Booth, George Mueller, Lord Shaftesbury and so on and so on, all stood up and acted on their faith. Their faith led them to action, to working for change in society, and so they did something about it.
Without being judgmental I think we can actually hide behind prayer because then it means we don’t have to actually do anything, say anything write letters to anyone, or participate in protests..
Oh! I forgot to include Martin Luther, who would have prayed earnestly for the Church; but in the end he realised he also had to make a stand..
Please believe me that I am not rubbishing the whole of the CofE. There are many fine Christian people amongst the clergy and laity. I meet and pray regularly with some of them.
The great sadness is that the leadership of the CofE has moved so far away from our Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel. Also that evil acts are either being hidden or explained with no real sense of shame..
The leadership is dependent on the acquiescence of the laity, and the laity is being passive because they truly believe their leaders are men of God.
I do not pay respect to a man because of his position or his robes; only do I respect a man whose life reflects his relationship with a holy God..
I appreciate Bishop Gavin’s statement early on about humor and understand now.
I confess to having a chuckle myself at Fr. George’s comment about the Proclamation Trust being a group of “about a thousand odd people.” Some more odd than others, I suppose.
I wonder how much of this is linked to the homoerotic practices within the UK public schools (private schools to the American mind) that this select group aimed at evangelizing?
This is another angle on the class issue.
Some of the British coverage of the issue is suggesting that you are right on the mark. This sort of behavior becomes so ingrained at an early age that in many individuals it carries over into adulthood.
One can readily see how this sort of behavior can become a source of blackmail- especially in the modern day, when every cell phone is a camera. One wonders how many clergy and bishops, or for that matter, members of Parliament or government ministers, have a “significant cloud” over their heads due to their “frolics” or “paying of forfeits” in “public” schools (which as Dr. Professional notes, translates into “private schools” in “American”).
We have seen evidence of such blackmail from both liberals and conservatives over the years. A couple weeks before any Synod discussing legislation regarding sexuality, someone mentions in the press that “many people know” that there are “at least a dozen” bishops in the Church of England who have gay partners (sometimes in addition to a hetero spouse) or some same-sex relationship in their past. We even hear such things occasionally (with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge but we won’t mention any names) on Anglican Ink, although generally in reference to one bishop at a time.
Both Fr. George & Bsp Gavin make excellent points – George speaks very well to the secular class issues & Gavin to the spiritual. Great confluence of thoughts as usual.
Thank you, Sir or Madam: Most interesting information.
St. Erasmus is the patron saint of sailors. He is also known more familiarly as St. Elmo as in St. Elmo’s fire an atmospherical phenomena which causes the tips of spars to glow. ‘Thank you, Sir or Madam’ is the response of one of the Tortolan characters in WoW; World of Warcraft. This is too much information but a distraction from spanking which 60 million women purchasers of 50 Shades of Grey were briefly enthralled.
Ah, the Father of European Christian Humanism.
The class issues do indeed riddle English Anglicanism—and not just of the conservative evangelical variety, though it’s a real problem within that constituency.
But its always risky speculating from a distance. The fact is that AMiE includes some from a more privileged background, but actually a large majority of AMiE church leaders do not come from that background. My sense is that the class dynamics you refer to are precisely what will inhibit some from leaving the Church of England.
Having experience of both sides of the Atlantic, I’d point out that the pre-ACNA Anglican movements were messy and at times bloody. And that American versions of class—the good ole boys, the southern gentlemen—were very much in play, and bullying undeniably took place.
As far as growth goes, I wonder how much experience you have of church planting in an extremely secular environment, with very limited resources?
Class, and consequent awe and deference are very much in evidence in the CofE, and it is that reverence for position that allows these little cliques of weird people with unsavoury appetites to flourish in dimly lit corners. Church leadership has changed its focus from Christian moral and spiritual certainty to ‘man management’ and inclusion based on its embrace of secular sourced Equal Opportunity legislation.
Thus ‘Ichabod’ – the Glory has departed.
dannybhoy. I am not so d____ skeptical. You see people as Bishop Nazir-Ali, Bishop Ashenden, other Church members who have protested one way or another against the moral decline, and the people in various groups which have been involved already in efforts to tackle the problem. You may one yourself, for all that I know. All is not lost, in my opinion. We can still pray for them. The power of prayer is not something to be dismissed lightly. God works in his own way, not on our demand or schedule. We can support them via GAFCON or direct contribution. No, I disagree, the glory of God that the saints have defended and emanated in England has not been extinguished but shines on.
“All is not lost, in my opinion. We can still pray for them. The power of prayer is not something to be dismissed lightly. God works in his own way, not on our demand or schedule. ”
Of course we can pray, but let me ask you something; when slavery was abolished in this country was it solely by prayer, or were there men like William Wilberforce willing to use their influence in society and in politics by explaining the evil and demanding change?
When our nation has been threatened by invasion was it prayer alone that saved the day, or did we need men of resolve, men of courage to take action? You may well have visited the war graves of France and Belgium, and if so you will have noticed that men laid down their lives for a cause that they believed in. It wasn’t just prayer, it was action.
Hence Daniel 3..”But if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands?”16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king.[d] 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
In the same way John and Charles Wesley, and George Whitfield, William and Catherine Booth, George Mueller, Lord Shaftesbury and so on and so on, all stood up and acted on their faith. Their faith led them to action, to working for change in society, and so they did something about it.
Without being judgmental I think we can actually hide behind prayer because then it means we don’t have to actually do anything, say anything write letters to anyone, or participate in protests..
Oh! I forgot to include Martin Luther, who would have prayed earnestly for the Church; but in the end he realised he also had to make a stand..
Please believe me that I am not rubbishing the whole of the CofE. There are many fine Christian people amongst the clergy and laity. I meet and pray regularly with some of them.
The great sadness is that the leadership of the CofE has moved so far away from our Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel. Also that evil acts are either being hidden or explained with no real sense of shame..
The leadership is dependent on the acquiescence of the laity, and the laity is being passive because they truly believe their leaders are men of God.
I do not pay respect to a man because of his position or his robes; only do I respect a man whose life reflects his relationship with a holy God..
I appreciate Bishop Gavin’s statement early on about humor and understand now.
I confess to having a chuckle myself at Fr. George’s comment about the Proclamation Trust being a group of “about a thousand odd people.” Some more odd than others, I suppose.
I wonder how much of this is linked to the homoerotic practices within the UK public schools (private schools to the American mind) that this select group aimed at evangelizing?
This is another angle on the class issue.
Some of the British coverage of the issue is suggesting that you are right on the mark. This sort of behavior becomes so ingrained at an early age that in many individuals it carries over into adulthood.
One can readily see how this sort of behavior can become a source of blackmail- especially in the modern day, when every cell phone is a camera. One wonders how many clergy and bishops, or for that matter, members of Parliament or government ministers, have a “significant cloud” over their heads due to their “frolics” or “paying of forfeits” in “public” schools (which as Dr. Professional notes, translates into “private schools” in “American”).
We have seen evidence of such blackmail from both liberals and conservatives over the years. A couple weeks before any Synod discussing legislation regarding sexuality, someone mentions in the press that “many people know” that there are “at least a dozen” bishops in the Church of England who have gay partners (sometimes in addition to a hetero spouse) or some same-sex relationship in their past. We even hear such things occasionally (with a wink, wink, nudge, nudge but we won’t mention any names) on Anglican Ink, although generally in reference to one bishop at a time.
This develops the background to the situation. http://anglican.ink/2019/07/04/the-english-the-evangelicals-and-the-elites-the-school-for-scandals/