The former papal nuncio to the US writes to President Trump on the spiritual forces at work in the US riots. They are not spontaneous protests he argues, but part of a deeper plan to subvert Western Christian civilization.
“[T]he attack to which you were subjected after your visit to the National Shrine of Saint John Paul II is part of the orchestrated media narrative which seeks not to fight racism and bring social order, but to aggravate dispositions; not to bring justice, but to legitimize violence and crime; not to serve the truth, but to favor one political faction.”
Archbishop Vigano Letter to Donald Trump 2020.06.07 by George Conger on Scribd
It’s not possible that there has been redemption at work in his life, and that he’s not the sinner he used to be?
While I pray that you are correct, Edgarson….and none of us can judge the health of another’s soul….well, in my own limited experience, the very first sign that God is at work in someone’s life is humility. And that is something we do not see. Nor do we see forgiveness on his part for those who may have wronged him in the past, nor acknowledgement of the harm he may have done to others.
Well, that should make me even more unpopular with some folks around here than I already am.
It is not in our position to judge anyone, including Mr. Trump. He will have his share, as well as you and I will, on our last Day, face to face with Jesus Christ for our Judgement. You have a sound observation about his humility. That does not make you unpopular since most of people, even President Trump’s supporters, realize that. The difference is why people support Mr. Trump as the President. Like King Cyrus in the Bible, who had no faith in our God but he allowed Jews to go back to their land to rebuild the temple to worship God. Trump’s supporters see that God can use sinners and we are all sinners in His eyes. President Trump has placed constitutional upheld judges, created more jobs for blacks, put Americans first, built strong military to protect America, regulated to brings jobs back to America, called out the deception of CCP. Is he successful yet? Not even close. But regardless of how hard it has been to him to walk uphill, facing all kinds of vicious attacks, he keeps chugging a long, committing to protect this nation, her constitution, and Christian faith. He might not be an ideal president for many but for those who care more about the better good for Christians and Americans and care less about his personal flaws (since they have their own flaws to worry about), they support him as a president just like Archbishop Vigano.
I wouldn’t put any trust in the opinions of a representative of a church body which is the enemy of the biblical gospel. I would worry first about the dangerous spiritual forces that Rome represents and which all Anglicans should reject. And then I’d look to a President first and foremost for competence in governance – and to truly biblical men for leadership in spiritual matters.
As the Bible teaches us to be wise and with Holy spirit’s guidance our discernment, we should see into actions instead of generalizing people based on their colors, cultures, or religious institutions. For centuries, popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests, etc. have been trying to destroy the Catholic church. But let’s not forget that in any religious institutions, there are godly, faithful ones and the ones who ally with Darkness to hunt and destroy the children of God. If we alienate our brothers and sisters in Christ just because where they choose to worship God, we fall in to Satan’s trap: divide to conquer. We ought to be wise, to pray and ask Holy Spirit to help us to detect lies from truth, to filter out loud noise of this world and listen to the whisper of Holy Spirit.
I agree that the state of Trump’s personal faith and soul’s health are not clear to us. He may be moving in the direction of a personal faith in Christ. I hope that may be so, and I pray for that. I prayed the same for Obama for the eight years of his presidency. I see less evidence of my prayers’ efficacy for Obama than I do for Trump.
You have been doing what the Bible teaches all the faithful: pray for your authority, respect them. Our family has been doing the same. Children of God, we ought to pray for the authority; some people mistake that we pray for their blessings. We pray for their hearts not to be harden, we pray for the conviction and conversion of heart. God works in His mysterious way. Then we ought to stand up on our feet to live out our faith, to work to build the society to fight back the darkness, to spread love and life. Then to vote. Do not worry about the “result” of our prayers since we can only see our past and a small corner of the big picture while God see through it all. We ought to trust in our Heavenly Father, cry out to Him but fully rely on His works. He said He listened to the faithful and He never fails.
Forgiveness follows reconciliation. The, unapologetic, America hating ‘Leftist Deep-State faction’ has been and will continue to attack America. Trump is merely their effigy; the target. Only a saint (St. Maria Goretti) can forgive while being ravaged by a corrupt entity., Admittedly, Pres. Trump is not a saint.
Despite some disagreements we have from time to time, tj, you could never be unpopular with me.
Thank you, David. I have always enjoyed those conversations.
Perhaps after the US election, we can return to the days when hotly contested debates on Anglican Ink revolved around whether wearing a chasuble is too Catholic, or whether Tom Wright’s latest book is sufficiently orthodox.
I’ve read a bit more Wright since those discussions, but that’s another story.
So you are the judge of how people have changed and become closer to God? Wow that takes a load off of God’s shoulders, he can just rely on you!
Have you considered the meaning of the word “possible” in Edgardson’s post?
Suzy, you’ve really turned around the meaning of my post. As Michael said, did you not see the word “possible”? Further, It sounds like you’ve already made YOUR judgement.
And taking a load off God’s shoulders? Please…
It’s possible, but there’s zero evidence. What we have to understand is that Trump is interested first and foremost in Trump, not what’s good for America. You can tell this from his self-serving and constant mendacity. In any case, the spiritual health of America isn’t going to be determined by which side of the culture wars one stands on; the answer’s not politics, but the gospel. And Trump, whose spiritual ‘mentor’ (if one can call him that) was the liberal Norman Vincent Peale and who surrounds himself with a crowd of word-faith false teachers such as his ‘spiritual adviser’, Paula White, wouldn’t know what the gospel was if it came up and bit him.
I think the same thing sometimes too Edgarson. So many people are praying for him….and it is evil sinners that come to redemption not righteous men. Even as there is a battle going on for this nation, I sometimes think there is a battle going on for the soul of our president. And doesn’t Romans urge us to pray for our leaders….
Thank you and God bless for this good quality copy of most recent Abp Viganò letter and a clear one line precis of the letter.
God bless you Archbishop Vigano
John 8:7
Large theologic question. Does God control our every action; are we bots? Or, does God choose to work through us and our free will no matter how bad? Constantine was hugely impactful for Christianity. There are times when good people are busy and someone else steps forward.
You are more familiar with Mr. Trump than one who has had a position as an ambassador to the US from the Vatican? Let me ask you this question: do we love homeless drug addicts more because we turn a blind eye and rather than demanding they get sober, allow them to fester out on the street? Is that good for them? Is that good for society? Is it good for our children to be unable to play in the park because there are dirty needles out in the sand?
But this is a page of the liberal playbook, Chris – to be completely codependent and utterly refuse to ask more from and for the millions of drug addicts we have in this country. You see it one way – we see it another. You think we’re cruel to want the borders closed. We want the borders closed so children, women and drugs aren’t trafficked so easily across them. Don’t believe me? Go talk to the border patrol, rather than listen to some leftist politician who is probably getting their palm greased by the cartels.
Mr. Trump is no buffoon – that is a narrative put out there by the main stream media in order to dupe the public. He has an IQ of about 160 and is still a billionaire. He didn’t get that way by accident. He has never had a drink, never smoked a joint, never had a cigarette and never taken drugs. Try opening your mind. Stop and think. The Archbishop that has been one of the few people to whistle blow on the Vatican, the sex abuse, the financial abuse, has come forward with a letter that should be an eye opener for you. Instead, you sound like you are angrily burying your head deeper in the sand.
Don’t be angry. Stop and think. Be open minded. At least consider the possibility that there may be another side to this you have not examined and that you may have been being duped. And since it involves the sexual abuse of children, human and sex trafficking, and many, many other terrible abuses, shouldn’t you slow it down and more thoroughly review the truth? I did – and it changed me completely.
Not hardly.
…and Trump’s never lied, never divorced, never used foul or profane language, never made disgusting and disgraceful remarks about approaching women. He’s so brilliant that he suggested injecting cleaning products as a possible treatment for Covid-19. Yeah: let’s open our minds to the man…
Trump has the personal flaws you cite, but the story that he suggested injecting cleaning products to treat COVID-19 is ridiculous. If you believe that one, please check your news sources for other false stories they may be selling you. I watched the news conference. He didn’t say that.
I watched the same news conference. These were his precise words: “And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One
minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection
inside or almost a cleaning?”
“Is there a way,” a question which is, in fact, being investigated by some interesting medical research, becomes “he suggested injecting cleaning products.” No, he didn’t.
It was certainly a suggestion – and was subsequently roundly and widely rejected as just plain bonkers.
Are you aware that chemotherapy is basically poison in your body that is designed to kill specific cells?
Apparently you don’t realize that the COVID-19 story you refer to was taken wildly out of context. He did not suggest that at all.
Frankly, it hurts your credibility, makes you sound like the mob who are constantly giving us “Orange Man bad”.
How would you interpret what Trump said?
I’m not a medical expert, Alan, so I can’t make a convincing case for what the medical experts said that Donald Trump had listened to, and were quoting. Suffice it to say they weren’t talking about dumping a bottle of bleach inside a living person, but there are clinical treatments for which what you’re referring inaccurately are ingredients, in infinitesimal amounts. Any more than that and you’ll have to talk to the doctors who are currently advising him on this pandemic.
This sounds remarkably like the debate over Hydroxychloroquine which, when given early in a patient’s sickness and in conjunction with Zinc and Z-Pacs shows remarkable promise in large numbers of patients, including with a world-renowned French research doctor. The results of this treatment were (and are) encouraging, and the French doctor’s reputation was sterling, right up until Donald Trump mentioned it had promise. Suddenly Hydroxychloroquine was poison, and the French doctor was a moron. Just more Orange Man bad.
I find it incredible that any POTUS would talk about cleaning products or
Hydroxychloroquine in connection with treatments for Covid-19 when there’s no serious evidence for their usefulness. He should leave these matters to the scientists. Not Orange Man bad, just Trump talking about things about which he possesses zero expertise.
They weren’t cleaning products and did you miss the part about a renowned French research doctor, as well as many in the United States both doing research into the matter and treating numerous patients successfully, if it’s early in their illness?
And how about this: “PHOENIX — A Tucson-based national organization of doctors has sued the federal Department of Health and Human Services for putting roadblocks in the path of physicians who want to prescribe hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19.”
Alan, you’re going to have to up your game. Your statements are hateful.
The Lancet Journal has retracted their endorsement of that study and have basically admitted it was specious to begin with. You also did not address my point about chemotherapy. One has to wonder why you are so upset about Trump making suggestions about treatments when he’s clearly surrounded by physicians.
Thanks for pointing this out. However, The Lancet states that an update on the issue is forthcoming, so the matter is evidently not closed.
As for the relevance to Covid-19 of chemotherapy as a treatment for cancer,,,, well, it’s irrelevant as no evidence has (yet) emerged of similar treatments being suitable for the Covid virus.
Trump may surround himself with scientists, but it’s largely for show – as his incompetent handling of the crisis proves. The same is true, unfortunately, of our government here in the UK. We have over 40,000 deaths (maybe many more) and the US has over 114,000. Hydroxychloroquine doesn’t seem to be making much of a difference…
I think I’ve said all I want to on these issues. Thanks to all fellow-posters who have put me on the spot and given me much food for thought.
Are you following your President in taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventive measure? Surely he knows best…
If you do, its very important to take sufficient gin with it.
Rudyard Kipling recommended it.
I’m not part of any ‘mob’. I simply observe what Trump says and does – like standing in front of a liberal Episcopal church brandishing a Bible or visiting an idolatrous interfaith RC shrine.
I’m wondering what you would be saying if it had been Obama doing the exact same thing. And how is the RC shrine idolatrous?
I would be saying exactly the same thing to Obama. As I said, I’m not part of any mob, blue or red. The RC shrine in question is open for prayer to RCs and members of other faiths. That’s heresy. Apparently the shrine also contains a relic of Pope John Paul II’s blood which can be venerated there. This amounts to medieval superstition combined with modern-day liberal interfaithism – which all biblically-minded Christians of any stripe should reject as poison to the soul.
Article 22 of the 39 Articles reads as follows: “The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.” (emphasis added)
No, but what was the point of his visit? As a professed Presbyterian he should avoid all association with RC idolatry.
I don’t know that he’s a “professed Presbyterian.” He was raised, in that tradition, has worshipped occasionally in Episcopal churches more recently, and has not, to my knowledge, “joined” any church or become regular in attendance.
As the news reports have clearly shown, he went to the JPII shrine on a pre-scheduled visit at which he had planned to sign an executive directive on international religious freedom. In view of the riots and of the expressed disapproval of the Catholic Bishop of Washington, the visit became a recognition of JPII’s work for freedom of religion, and the actual executive order was signed back at the White House.
I have read nothing to indicate that venerating relics, worshipping them, or adoring them, was on Trump’s agenda at all.
Trump said in 2015 that he attends Reformed Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan, where he married his first wife Ivana in 1977, although the church says he’s not an “active member”. He is also loosely affiliated with Lakeside Presbyterian Church in West Palm Beach, Florida, near his Mar-a-Lago estate. This is the extent of his affiliation. Pretty thin, eh? But this was his claim. It’s a sham, of course.
Now here’s the problem: Marble Collegiate Church takes an LGBT-welcoming, open and affirming approach to same-gender relationships and non-cisgender identities. This includes the performing of same-sex marriage ceremonies, a designated queer fellowship (GIFTS), annual participation in the NYC Pride parade and sermons and material on the church website encouraging a historical-critical view of Scripture in opposition to the conservative belief in Biblical Inerrancy. If Trump’s ‘conservative’ base had known this, would they still have supported him in 2016?
As I said before, no-one professing to be a Christian should go near a shrine dedicated to interfaith prayer, which is idolatrous. A RC shrine is bad enough, but one established for people of different religions to pray at is an abomination.
You do realize that he’s attended church a number of times since he’s become President…
Wow, that certainly makes him a Christian, then. Can’t have been for show.
Also explains his firm grasp of truth.
I don’t have any evidence that Mr Trump is a believer, but I do believe that people who attend church occasionally and who are in sympathy with Christianity in some ways are often better for those things. Mr Trump has shown himself in favour of some Christian causes when many of his critics on the Left are clearly not. It must be a plus to have a leader like that, even if much of it is for political ends, whatever minuses he may also have. Well, does have! Some have described the President as a buffoon, but perhaps a relatively moderate buffoon is needed by America just now to counter the extreme buffoonery of many of his enemies.
There is no such person as someone who is merely in sympathy with Christianity. Unless they’re converted, they’re sinners entirely hostile to God.
I don’t believe that Trump does anything unless it advances his own power agenda. America First = Trump first. Make America Great Again = Make Trump great.
There are people who are not Christians who are in sympathy with Christianity. There are plenty of non-Christians who do or have done a great deal of good, even though those good things don’t help them towards salvation. We could hardly say with a straight face that Winston Churchill did no more good than Joseph Stalin, but theireis no evidence that either was a Christian. The fact that Churchill acknowledged God and was sympathetic towards Christianity must have counted for something positive in terms of this world.
“There is no such person as someone who is merely in sympathy with Christianity.”
Well, there is. I agree with you that being in sympathy with Christianity does not make one saved, but it can be very important as a step on the road to salvation. When Jesus said to one seeker, “You are not far from the Kingdom of God”, there was hope that the man could be saved before he died.
I am not relating this to Trump or Obama or anyone else. Just referring to the general principle.
We are sinners. Are you so sanctimonious that you are ready to cast the first stone? Berate a man for placing a Bible in front of him? A move in the right direction, I would say. It might indicate what others should be doing. Yes, I would agree, reading it should follow–and applying it. If I am not mistaken, it was the Revised Standard Version, too, which, I suppose, might rankle Episcopal bishops who would prefer the gender neutral word changes of the New Revised Standard Version.
Trump was appealing to his base by brandishing the Bible. It’s hardly sanctimonious to expect a man who acts in this way actually to open the said book, read it and put into practice in his life – starting with some attempt to obey the 9th Commandment.
Well, you’re right – Trump’s base evidently includes professing Christians. But it also encompasses some pretty unsavoury groups.
The problem though, from a UK perspective, is that too much faith is placed by US believers in winning the Culture Wars through political action. After all, all manner of ‘conservatives’ can support traditional morals, e.g. Muslims, Jews, Mormons, etc. That’s moralism, not gospel-based activity.
The answer for the US is not Trump – or any politician – but church leaders and congregations who stand uncompromisingly for biblical truth and who produce godly converts. 25 years ago Michael S. Horton wrote a book called ‘Beyond Culture Wars’. All Christians should read it!
Thank God for men like you, with your character, insight, compassion and honesty! God bless you!
Archbishop Vigano’s comments specifically mention Trump’s pro-life public statements and actions, and his support for international religious freedom, which was the reason for his previously scheduled trip to the JPII shrine, on the anniversary of JPII’s trip to Communist Poland. The Catholic archbishop of Washington condemned that visit; he obviously does favor one political faction, an anti-Catholic and anti-Christian one.
I doubt it. Archbishop Gregory was a harsh critic of former U.S. President Obama`s anti-catholic campaign. His attack on President Trump was unnecessary and demagogical, but the press claimed falsely that they had used tear gas before the visit and he believed it.
The point, though, about Trump’s visit to the Saint John Paul II National Shrine is that the shrine is a not simply a place of prayer for Roman Catholics but welcomes
people of all faiths. In other words, it is a place of liberal interfaith activity perfectly consonant with heretical modern-day Roman Catholic teaching and an abomination in the eyes of God – and one to be rejected by all biblically minded believers. The fact that Trump went there tells you everything you need to know about his total ignorance in spiritual matters.
Archbishop Vigano addresses this specifically in the letter above: “On the one hand there are those who, although they have a thousand defects and weaknesses, are motivated by the desire to do good, to be honest, to raise a family, to engage in work, to give prosperity to their homeland, to help the needy, and, in obedience to the Law of God, to merit the Kingdom of Heaven.”
I am one of those people. I’m not perfect. When I was younger I made some terrible mistakes. But I’m a good person and I worked (with God’s great direction) on myself. Jesus did not choose among the perfect to find His apostles – He chose among the humans for those He kept the closest to Himself. He hung on the cross between 2 criminals. I think if Jesus were here in the flesh and walking among us right now he would probably be at an AA meeting or moving among the homeless. Wouldn’t He? God blesses Donald Trump, right along with the rest of us, as a forgiven sinner. And thank God for that!
God uses horribly flawed people to be his instruments. Saul had blood thirst for David and eventually committed suicide. Davide was a murderer and adulterer. Soloman built pagan shrines around Israel to curry favor with neighbors and hedge against YHWH. Trump is crude and coarse, but he is no murderer, no promoter of active idolatry. Trump is flawed, even deeply flawed who is to tell God who He can use and not use for his ends?
“God uses horribly flawed people to be his instruments”. That’s undeniably true. But that doesn’t mean that we have to commend them. Sometimes he uses absolute monsters…
“but he is no murderer.” Everyone who is angry with another person is a murderer (Mt.5:21-22). Trump is a very angry man.
“no promoter of active idolatry”. So what was he doing at an idolatrous Roman Catholic shrine last week – one open to people of all faiths?
His Holiness gonna be doin’ some good well deserved ass-kickin’ shortly!
You obviously dont know Vigano. He is protected, and the pope cant touch him.
Not knowing how, but I pray you are right! He might make a good pope!
Anglicans don’t recognise the pope or the church of which he is the head, as the 39 Articles make clear.
Of course not. But Anglicans, starting with Cranmer, have been confessionally opposed to Rome because that body does not teach the biblical gospel and indeed has widened salvation to include members of other religions. Please read the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’, para 841: ‘The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” ‘ Anglican engagement with Rome as part of the ecumenical movement is based on liberal, lowest common denominator thinking which all right-minded and theologically aware Anglicans should reject. Our response should be: ‘It’s the gospel, stupid!’
In the end, to be an Anglican is to stand on the biblical truths articulated in the 39 Articles which oppose the denial of the gospel inherent in RC teaching both at the time of the Reformation and now. To disagree is to extend the definition of Anglicanism beyond confessional and biblical bounds. It is irrelevant how many Anglicans might agree with this stance: the issue is truth.
To extend what it means to be Anglican beyond its confessional boundaries is actually to move more towards the Newmanian notion of doctrinal development which holds sway in RCism. And the differences that existed in the 16thC aren’t merely matters of historical interest as they have never gone away – as, for example, over the question of transubstantiation. While Christians may have varying opinions over matters of biblical interpretation (e.g. in secondary matters such as church government), in first-order issues affecting the gospel there can only be one truth. So, for example, when RCs teach falsely on the doctrine of justification, as they did and still do, there can be no compromise because the gospel is at stake. There cannot be two different, opposing versions of first-order biblical doctrine.
Alan is right. We are sometimes told that Roman Catholics and Anglicans have come to agreement on justification. When one says ” Does that mean that Roman Catholics now believe in justification by faith only?” the answer given is “Well, by faith, but not ‘only’ or ‘alone’ “. There is still disagrremnent on that vital doctrine, the one said by Luther the one on which the church stands or falls. There are serious differences between Anglicans and Roman Catholics, and that is one of them.
That is not to say that people have to believe in ” faith only” in order to be justified, but once it is carefully taught to a Christian he or she has no exccuse not to believe it.
Well put.
“Keeping bound to past limitations of argumentation …”
That’s what we all do when we follow Scripture. I for one am unashamed about it.
I would correct Alan Howe on one issue – what makes us distinctively Anglican is not just the Articles of Religion, but the three formularies: The Articles, the Book of Common Prayer and the Ordinal. Following scripture distintinuishes us as Christian; whereas following the formularies further distinguishes us as the particular group of Christians called Anglicans.
Personally I find the formularies full of sound, godly and wholesome doctrine – a great exposition of the teachings of Scripture. I am happy to discuss if its important to others. But I don’t think the formularies are defective merely because they are old.
“The problem, I suppose, is that not all Christians perceive the truth in the same way, from the same angle.”
They don’t all perceive the Gospel from the same angle either. Still the truth is what it is.
We are hobby farmers and raise cattle. we have 8 different pastures. Some cattle prefer one pasture while other cattle are eating from another pasture while other cattle are resting in another pasture. They are all our cattle. Once the neighbors cattle were found on our pasture…they had to go! You are the body of Christ…..
What “Holiness” would that be?
The one who presumes to share with God the title of The Holy Father.
If I were an American I probably would have very reluctantly voted for Mrs Clinton in 2016. I thought the choice was between a crook and a madman, to express it with hyperbole. Looking at Mr Trump from down-under it appears as though he has done a great deal to oppose “political correctness” of an evil kind and he has been a big advocate of freedom of religion and freedom of speech, unlike some of his Democrat foes, including Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton. Mr Obama said he had always agreed with the idea of same-sex marriage, but had opposed it for political purposes while it popular to do so (in the same way as some prominent political figures in the Australian Labor Party blatantly did). I regard that example as a self-condemnation of the man yet he was praised generally rather than being howled down for his gross deceit. Mr Trump is by no means more sinful than Mr Obama or Mrs Clinton, if we can use as an indicator the general impression they have given. It does seem as though Donald Trump is being used by God for good in a number of ways, even if he is perhaps as yet far from the kingdom.
Did Australians really donate $85 million to the Foundation for Hillary’s pay to play scheme? We heard the former Australian ambassador to the US made a $25 million personal donation. Is that over an above the $85 million? Heck even tiny Norway with their North Sea oil chipped into the Foundation for $5 million. Can’t blame anyone when your horse has a 85% chance of winning. A lot of people still love Hillary. Her husband isn’t one of them.
Without doubt this letter says it all
I’m trying to picture the president reading this.
why would he read it? He wrote the original, which was then “doctored up” to sound intelligent, and then signed by …
Some times we get the person for the job who is chosen. Who else in this entire world could stand up to all the garbage and the threats and the lies from every corner that Pres Trump has had to deal with every day? Every word, every action investigated for 3 years when you knew you had done nothing wrong and still move forward to MAGA!
Romney?
Hillary?
Jeb Bush?
All who ran against him on the Rep side?
Biden? God help us!
None of them would still be standing and not have given in to the “deep state!”
I think Pres Trump has changed in many ways, since he has become President
and has these good religious leaders in the White House very often.
Can you just imagine what will happen to this country if the dems win?
Police will be gone: planned parenthood will kill all the black babies (was the original intent of PP) Christians will be hunted on the streets; taxes will sky rocket’ our Constitution and Bill of Rights will be done away with.
Do I believe all that? I think I do – just look at what’s happening!
“Western Christian Civilization” does a fine time subverting itself by being 200 years out of date and caught up in its own brand of Fascism.
The issue is: Whose side are you on?
And there are only two sides: God or Satan.
What kind of a person does not matter to which side you *choose* to fight on. There are plenty of nice, kind, compassionate people who are extremely active on Satan’s side; and there are plenty of deeply flawed people on God’s side.
And sometimes the two candidates of the major parties are on Satan’s side.
Or is that not possible?
I don’t understand this ridiculous idea that Christians are supposed ‘not to be judgmental’! This is a modern atheist Leftist mantra. On the contrary all Christians must practice discernment about the motivations of others, and act upon them when necessary. Obviously.
Of course, we may turn out to be mistaken in our evaluations – then we should change our judgment. But judge we must, and should neither apologise nor feel ashamed at it.
After all, everybody does judge – without exception – *especially* those who harp-on about not-judging, which act is itself (obviously!) a judgment!
It’s in the book!
Honestly, does nobody of you US Christians read the bible anymore?
You are clearly an profoundly wrong! Now go and meditate on that.
Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
This passage is about hypocrisy, i.e. judging someone else when one is doing precisely the same wrong thing. It is NOT about exercising discernment as to someone’s spiritual state, for example in ‘judging’ whether an individual is a suitable candidate for church membership – or whether a professing Christian has behaved in a way which requires church discipline to be applied to him/her: “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 18:15-18; KJV)
Nor is there any biblical injunction against ‘judging’ doctrinal error. On the contrary, we are, for example, to follow the example of Paul in his anathematising of the Galatian heresy (Galatians chapter 1).
Both blatant personal sin (such as public mendacity) and doctrinal error (such as embracing or tolerating Roman Catholic false teachings) are spiritual contaminants in the church which must be challenged and rooted out if they cannot be corrected.
I rather go with the very clear and precise original words, than you theological excuses.
Good, so you also go with these very clear and precise original words:
(John 7:24).
We are commanded to judge. No theological excuses now.
I’d say it is a deadlock. We are commanded to judge and not to judge. Maybe god can´t make up his mind.
Or maybe you need to carry out the very basic step of reading in context.
Take two passages out of any literary work or manifesto, devoid of context, and its not hard to claim that the document is contradictory. Of course, if you read the passages in context, they usually aren’t contradictory at all.
One could read a couple of sentences from Marc Antony’s funeral speech in Julius Ceasar and conclude that he despised Caesar and agreed with the conspirators. If you read the whole speech, a very different conclusion swiftly emerges.
I am sorry for my behaviour. You seem to be a decent person with good manners and a well founded education. Have a nice life, and thank you for the input. I enjoyed that, especially here on BB.
I must apologise also for the tone of my last post – I had thought you were a particular person who some time ago seemed only intent on creating argument for the sake of it, but I didn’t remember the name correctly. Best regards.
I must apologise also for the tone of my last post – I had thought you were a particular person who some time ago seemed only intent on creating argument for the sake of it, but I didn’t remember the name correctly. Best regards.
[…] Archbishop Vigano writes to President Trump on the spiritual forces at work in the US riots […]
THANK YOU, GOD! A man of YOUR KINGDOM and not of this world, who is not afraid to speak Truth to the darkness. Let us ALL pray our hearts out!
Absolute garbage!
I think that’s the point that Chris Russell and others are making above. Its really in reverse – one can vote for Trump, or indeed see him as by far the best choice as President without having to say he is particularly righteous or that he is a committed Christian.
We see many examples of this in the Bible – leaders who are used powerfully by God to protect His people (Jews in the OT and the Church in the NT) yet those leaders themselves may not have a relationship with God (e.g. Artaxerxes I), or their faith may be very uncertain and shaky (e.g. Jehu).
Looked at in that light, a Christian can critique e.g. Trump’s adultery or comments disrespectful to women or whatever, yet still vote for him.
This guy….I’m thinking this guy gets it.
Is Covid 19 a deliberate man made plot to rid the world of the poor and weak? From the Elizabethan genius Francis Bacon and his Novum Organum to the Founding Fathers Novo Ordo Secolorum to today’s New World Order Illiminati. How the best intentions of the past have been used for evil. The faction novel The Royal Secret on the life of Bacon links the past to today and the future.
Nah. The homeless haven’t been much affected. They’re living and mixing in close proximity doing their usual shooting up, vaping, and smoking without any more ill consequences than the general population. Maybe even less. Old people are being hit the hardest and men more so than women which is unfair.
Unfair…
“Deserves got nothing to do with it!” – William Munny.
As Black American Catholic, I agree with Archbishop Gregory. I am pro-life but I mean all life. No one gets left out. I cannot believe how many have allowed this president to lie persistently and divide people on nearly every issue. I know a deceiver when I see one. What happened to our faith? There has to be another leader who better fits our ideals than to put up with this president. I am very disappointed and I feel misled.
The answer, however, lies in changing people through Christian conversion, not legislation. The US isn’t a Christian nation, never has been, so its only hope is evangelism, not politics.
To misquote Clinton: it’s the gospel, stupid!
The last time the elite Roman hierarchy communicated in a Masonophobic manner like this with a major national leader, 200,000 Masons were killed in the Holocaust.
Instead of blaming the actual instigators of chaos, the Masons are always a handy go-to. The Jesuits – who Vigano’s brother belongs to! – are a trillion times more responsible for the carnage on American streets than the Masons ever will be.
Hitler is on record praising the Jesuits. Himmler is on record stating that he modelled the SS after them! Donald has let a lot of people down very badly by parroting this bigoted, Masonophobic crap.
As I’ve said, the last time the Roman hierarchy and a major national leader conversed in such a Masonophobic manner, 200,000 Masons were killed!
I hope Donald knows where he is going. And, indeed, with whom!
A massive, massive disappointment, and a clear sign of allegiances. Lots of good allies will have been lost through this acquiescence with elite Roman tyrants who cant handle the notion of other organisations having power in the world.
A depressing development.
I could find no flaw in the Archbishop’s letter. It was very inspirational.
[…] Francis and, more recently, the same false spirit in Rev. Gini Gerbasi, did so eloquently in this letter to our President. It is the same light acknowledged by only 1 in 136 of our shepherds here in Orange County, “Dear […]
[…] dalle elezioni presidenziali, Viganò sfrutta tutto il suo peso come ex nunzio per pubblicizzare la sua lettera a Donald Trump. La sua missiva risuona d’implicazioni politiche mentre scrive che le proteste per la morte […]
[…] archbishop and former nuncio to the United States, Carlo Maria Viganò. In his letter to President Trump, he wrote: “On the one hand there are those who, although they have a thsand defects and […]
[…] actual archbishop and former nuncio to the United States, Carlo Maria Viganò. In his letter to President Trump, he wrote: “On the one hand there are those who, although they have a thsand defects and […]
[…] first from an actual archbishop and former nuncio to the United States, Carlo Maria Viganò. In his letter to President Trump, he wrote: “On the one hand there are those who, although they have a thsand defects and […]